GLD #17 | Spey Casting Techniques with Tim Arsenault of Bridge Outfitters – Great Lakes Dude Podcast

WFS 886 Transcript 00:00:00 Jeff: Hey, hey, this is your Great Lakes dude, Jeff Lasky coming to you on the Wet Fly Swing podcast, where we’re going to be going rage angler on all things Great Lakes from gear Fly, big Water and swinging flies. Of course, if it concerns the Great Lakes, we’ve got you covered. So stay tuned to this next episode. Hey. Hey everyone, welcome to the Wet Fly Swings Great Lakes podcast. I’m your host, Jeff Lisk, aka Great Lakes dude. Well, you know, I had such a great time and I learned so much, uh, interviewing my good friends across the border, Pat and Whitey, when I was up in British Columbia, I figured, you know, what the heck? Why not keep the roll going and interview a really good friend, a super mentor to me, and for casting and fishing everything else. And he’s probably one of the most respected in the spay industry and beyond. I can’t say enough about it, but I would super stoked to introduce this episode’s guest, Tim Arsenault from Bridge Outfitters from Vancouver, British Columbia. Hey, Tim, welcome to the show. 00:01:16 Tim: Hey, Jeff. Thanks for having me. 00:01:17 Jeff: Yeah, man, it’s good to see you visually and talking to you, man. 00:01:21 Tim: We’re far away, but it it feels like we’re hanging out, right? 00:01:25 Jeff: Yeah, right. Do you have your, uh. Do you have your adult beverage? I know you’re a. 00:01:29 Tim: It’s not the highest quality beverage, but it is what I. 00:01:33 Jeff: Yeah, I know you. You know, it’s amazing. You’re a man of, uh, jack of all trades. You really impressed me with your wine, uh, knowledge. Let me tell you. 00:01:42 Tim: Oh, thanks. Yeah, my my wife. My taste in wine rapidly outpaces my budget. But my taste in beer is, uh, is is pretty high school. I gotta admit, I like beers. I can throw back pretty easy. Right? So this. this, this Pabst Blue Ribbon for those who can’t see still remains a favorite for me. Uh. 00:02:05 Jeff: Yeah. These podcasts are like a remote drinking location, you know? Virtual bar. Yeah, but I see you’re all set up. You got all your lines behind you. But, you know, I sort of like to start out. I mean, I don’t even know where to start. You’ve got so much knowledge. And we’ve spent now a couple years together hosting trips and spending some fishing time. I always visit you on my way up, you know, up, up north. But let’s talk a little bit, you know, about Tim, how you got into it. I’m sure you’ve told this story before, but, you know, the fishing in and around Vancouver, you know what really got you motivated to go the direction you did, man? 00:02:41 Tim: Yeah. For sure. So, um, you know, my parents, my parents didn’t, uh, camp or hunt or fish or really do a whole lot of any outdoor activities. Great, great folks, obviously. But it was never really it wasn’t something that I was, um, introduced to at a super young age. So funny enough, my introduction to fishing originally, you know, was, um, occasionally we would ride our bikes down to some of the sloughs around South Surrey and fish, we’d just throw like worms or whatever, you know, it wasn’t, you know, but it was nothing to really, you know, it wasn’t really anything to, to write home about. And then, um, outside of that, I didn’t really fish until I met a really good buddy in high school, um, who was the first guy, my first friend, to have a car. And, uh, we’ll be at his birthday early or whatever, but he had a car before anyone else. But we still hang out to this day, and, uh. And we weren’t the greatest kids, so we we started, uh, skipping school, and, like, he would have his dad’s. I didn’t even have, like, a proper, like, a good level line set up. Right. And so he would he would say to me, hey, man, I got my dad’s waders and my rod and his rod in the back of the car. Like, do you want to do you want to get out of here and go fishing? And so we did that. We skipped school and we, we, um, we fished and, uh, you know, that was probably like probably fifteen years old, I guess, at that point. And he was sixteen and, uh, and we did and, uh, we were up to other stuff. So we. 00:04:16 Jeff: We. 00:04:17 Tim: Uh, have a, a fun pass where we got kicked out of school a few times. We both got it was funny and, and so then like, uh, he, he got kicked out and I got kicked out. Different reasons and whatever. And and what they did back then anyway, is they had like a, like an alternate program for, for kids that perennial distractions the other students. So, uh, it was really funny. I got, I got sentenced to that program and I walked in and he was there and uh, and he said, do you want to skip and go fishing? So you picked up right where we left off. And, uh, that was my first introduction to, you know, real salmon and steelhead fishing. You know, he had grown up doing it. And and some of his older friends, uh, did it. And he had a lot more knowledge than I did. So he was the first guy to kind of, um, show me, you know, the bigger rivers, the the real sort of fishing around this zone. We would go to the, the Chilliwack River, which is a pretty well-known river close to Vancouver and, and a bunch other rivers in the, in the eastern valley. And that was my first exposure to it. So, um, it wasn’t as like, uh, as innocent as maybe some of the, you know, haven’t had dad show them, but, uh, but but it was fun. And, uh, you know, it was important that I get introduced to it or else I wouldn’t be sitting here talking to you. So. And me and him still hang out with it. It’s awesome. So it’s, uh. 00:05:45 Jeff: Yeah, it worked out. Yeah. Let me. I gotta ask you a question. It seems like all fishing bums are the same. I never went to school on a Friday, and I was always the one, at least two or three times in the principal office getting swats. Did they swat across the border to back in your day? 00:06:03 Tim: Oh, what is what is that? 00:06:06 Jeff: Dude, I’m telling you, it was literally back in my day. While I am as old as the rocks, a stone, right? But but it was a paddle with holes in it. And you would, like, put your hands up against the wall and and you’d be like, hey, you just cut two, you know, two classes to go fishing. Whack, whack, whack. And, you know, do you, do you think that would stop me from going fishing? But there was no such thing as swatting across the border, huh? 00:06:30 Tim: No. Well, not not in my. Not at my time, anyway. We hit each other, but the teachers didn’t hit us. But no, we we. I escaped that, although, you know, I, I realized that that was a thing at one point, but, uh. But, yeah, no, there was no physical repercussions. 00:06:50 Jeff: So you got this good, bud. You got a couple of rods thrown in the trunk. And so where did this journey take you from there, man? It’s like you’re like a superstar. Where does it go from there? 00:06:59 Tim: Yeah, like I just, uh, fell in love with it immediately and, uh, just started kind of trying to do everything I could to fish as much as possible. And, uh, I, uh, took a job just sort of like at a at a factory, um, where we manufactured, uh, drywall supplies. Uh, mostly because I could work from, uh, three pm to eleven pm, which meant that any morning I wanted to, I could, um, I could get up at first light and fish till one or two and still make some money. So I, you know, I just basically didn’t go back to school for a while after that, but I just kind of got a job and just started basically trying to fish as much as I possibly could and kind of threw everything aside to do to do that as much as possible. And then, um, yeah, as time went on, like, obviously I started gear fishing. That was where it started. And then that same friend of mine, uh, introduced me to, um, to a fly rod. He had, uh, an old sage pl six weight, and we, we went cutthroat fishing one day, and he shared it with me. We just how I would cast and then he’d be okay, give it back. And then he would cast it. And from right there, I thought, man, this is super cool. And then, um, you know, I got a good single hand setup followed by a bunch of others. And then eventually I was, you know, I was really into steelheading both gear fishing and fly fishing for them for a few years with a single handed rod. Um, but it wasn’t long before, um, I saw someone Spey cast for the first time back in that at that time, like in the late nineties, you just you didn’t really see. It wasn’t like today where you see people spey casting all over the place, you know, like, it just it really stuck out, you know, like I had never seen it before. And and I was on the, uh, Chilliwack River And I had, um, kind of went down to this, uh, run in the lower river. And, um, I saw this. I was fishing away and, and, um, I saw this guy kind of come down the opposite bank downstream of me in the next run down. You know, I didn’t really think much. He had like, a, you know, a really long rod and, uh, and a great big gold reel. It looked like maybe in an Islander FR series or something like that. And I could see he had like a really thick, sort of like yellowish line through the guides. So that kind of threw me for a bit of a loop, because it just looked like a really big rod. It looked more like a center pin rod that he had, you know, rather than a fly rod. But I could see fly rod through the rings, but I didn’t pay much attention to it. I just kept fishing and, um, I’ll never forget, I, uh, he he I could hear him pulling off a bunch of line, and it was kind of silent and. And then I just heard, like, out of nowhere, kind of like a like a, like a quick jolt of the reel. And I looked. 00:09:44 Jeff: And I. 00:09:46 Tim: Line, you know, turning over way on the far bank, like near the other side of the river. And I was like, well, what is going on here? You know, like, is CAS basically hit the real, real hard and like, pulled it. So now, you know, obviously I’m watching. So, um, you know, he would just like I think for a lot of us, the first time we see it, you would just make these sort of really effortless, magical sweeps. And then he would come around and accelerate forward and stop. And this, you know, I’d love to know who he was because he could really cast. And, uh, and every time I just see his, his line fly across the river, turn over on the far bank, and I just it was really funny. His reel every time would just go. Every time his CAS would turn over, I was like, whoa, what is that? Like, I gotta know what that is. So I ran into Michael and Young where I, you know, obviously work at now and and Dave O’Brien, the owner was there and I was like, man, I saw this guy. He was doing this thing. I wound up doing this with his rod and the thing fly out there and he goes, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s Spey casting, right? And uh, he showed me, uh, a rod rack with just like maybe a half a dozen rods on it, which is funny now because like, that was a huge selection back then. But but now, of course, there’s like, you know, at our store, we got a, a mass up for maybe our biggest fly rod rack is for two handed rods. So, so that was my first sort of like introduction to Spey casting. And I knew I liked fly casting a lot. Right. And as soon as I saw I saw that I ran to the shop and I found out about that. And then um, and then, uh, he told me about it, and, uh, I was able to get my hands on that little Simon Bosworth book that came with, uh, real lines eventually, and, uh, that showed me some of the casts. And I got the Derek Brown video eventually, after I got a rod and I. Yeah, there was a bunch of early. There wasn’t a ton of information early on, but, um, but there was some information that I was able to get my hands on, And, uh, I pretty much knew from the first cast that, like, it was going to be a problem for me. Uh. Yeah, I kind of knew that, you know, without knowing, I kind of. I kind of knew without knowing that I was going to have to try and do everything I could to to make it so that my life would revolve around casting. I knew that pretty quickly. Um, I kind of fell in love with it right away. And yeah, that’s pretty much I mean, as far as my Spey casting journey, that’s sort of like where it began, basically. 00:12:16 Jeff: I remember the first time, um, my mentor was Neil holding up in Canada, and I remember the first time he had like a longer, you know, old I think it was an airflow delta, and he just energized it with one little snake roll pickup. And that thing went and it was just like this. All right. I gotta have some of that, right. It’s just one of those deals. Right. So I think everybody gets to that point, right where you’re like, oh, you’re going down the rabbit hole. And I think that Spey casting and the swung fly. I think it’s I feel it’s got to be one of the most contagious facets of fly fishing there is. I don’t know, that’s just me. I probably just, you know, bias on it. But, you know, I don’t know. I think so, man. 00:12:56 Tim: Yeah. I would agree with you. I mean, I think that, you know, I think the act of Spey casting, I think like how unique the tackle is, how unique the casting is, you know, using these really old reels. You know, some guys are using super old patterns and sourcing like, original materials, like old hooks. Like, there’s just so many cool facets, I think, to swung fly steelhead fishing that make it super interesting and fun even if you’re not catching fish. You know what I mean? Like, um. 00:13:29 Jeff: Right. 00:13:30 Tim: Yeah. I think like of all the and I can’t, I can only speak for myself, but I think for, for like all the forms of fishing I’ve tried, it’s the one like where if I don’t get fish like I think I’m the most like satisfied of the other other types of fishing. At the end of the day, you know, there’s just so much to enjoy. To me, you know, it’s just so interesting. 00:13:55 Dave: Trout Routes by Onyx is built for fly anglers who want better Intel without spending hours digging for the information. You’ll get access to public land maps, stream access points, regulations, and even road and trail maps all in one place. It’s become my go to app for scouting new trips. You can check them out right now, go to Complex Routes and download the app today. Check out Jackson Hole Fly Company today. Premium fly gear straight to your door without the premium price. Jackson Hole Fly Company designs and builds their own fly rods, reels, flies and gear, delivering quality you can trust at prices that let you fish more and spend less. Whether you’re picking up a fly rod for the first time or guiding every day, they’ve got what you need. Check them out right now. That’s Jackson hole fly company.com Jackson hole. Company.com. 00:14:49 Jeff: So you got the fly rod. You see these magical casts? You’re working at the shop. Tell us a little bit about, you know, your next journey into your fishing and your experiences and meeting the other cast of characters in, you know, in and around the Vancouver area. You know, and you were right in that time of where there was a few famous rivers that were that’s where everybody met and that. Tell us a little bit about that, man. 00:15:12 Tim: Yeah. For sure. So like, like I got hooked on steelhead pretty much like right from the the get go. So when I started, uh, spey casting, you know, steelhead was, you know, that was my primary sort of like, thing, um, that I was gonna spey cast for, I guess, like a lot of other people. And, uh, and, yeah, I started obviously moving as a lot of people do. You start moving out of your your, like, immediate area and, you know, exploring other places and um, and of course, if you hang around, you know, it would still be a few years before I’d work in the shop. But, I mean, if you’re hanging around shops, which usually we, we do as anglers, you start hearing about cool places, right? And places you’ve never been before and, and big fish and, uh, crazy rivers. And you’re like, man, I really want to go and do that. So the closest thing for me to this area that was like getting outside of, like my box was, um, was the Thompson River was, which was just like a few hours up the road from from here it is. It’s it’s still there, but it was a few hours up the road, so, but I, you know, I fished it. I didn’t realize the first time I fished it how, how big a part it would play. And like, you know, my development as a, as an angler and a and a caster and informing, you know, a lot of friendships and and meeting people from the area. The Thompson is like, it’s a big river. It’s a slippery river. So it’s like, really hard to even just stay upright in that river. So just waiting at, uh, waiting it as a challenge. And then the fish there are like, second to none. They’re they’re incredibly hot. They pull super hard. They’re big. They look cool. They’re just like big, bulked out. Like they’re just cool looking fish. Just like muscular fish, you know, long migrators and extremely powerful. They’re pretty hard to catch, too. I mean, in my in my experience, um, you know, you really had to work for the fish there I found, which, you know, uh, added to the lure of it, added to the value of of of catching something there. Um, but probably the biggest, uh, element of that river as far as, like, I guess my, my development as an angler was the fact that, like, it rewarded long casting and I saw that at a really early stage of my two handed steelhead angling. So, you know, basically in a lot of rivers, casting far can hurt you more than help you if you’re not doing it in the right places. Um, and most rivers have limited places where long casts are viable, and the Thompson’s the same. Like, it’s not. It’s not like there’s long cast spots everywhere. Um, but there’s probably more than in a lot of rivers. And the other cool thing about the Thompson and you alluded to this was the people that were there. So like it was, you know, a lot of the friends and people I met in this area, you know, were pretty heavily, you know, subscribed to that fishery as well. Um, being from the Lower Mainland and having such an exceptional world class steelhead fishery within a few hours. Right. And then also a lot of, um, a lot of international anglers, both, uh, guys from the United States. Um, but people from overseas as well. Um, Japan. Korea. We had people from all over coming into town. So it was a really neat place. And the lure of of catching, you know, these big, powerful steelhead on long casts, you know, obviously, uh, you know, you heard about that. And then when you went there, you saw it, you saw guys, you know, making these, these huge casts on these, you know, giant pools and, and catching fish and, and so, you know, that had immediately had, uh, an impact on me seeing a fairly like, a good, uh, amount of notable international Spey casting anglers converging on this river that was relatively close to where I lived and then observing all that. And it made me want to cast far almost right from the beginning. And it instilled in me, because of that fishery and an idea that a long cast was like a good thing, and it was something that would catch you a lot of fish, right? Or it could maybe not a lot of fish, but would catch you fish and it might catch you fish that after someone else had fished a spot, if you went through and you threw it a little further, the Thompson was a place at times that would would reward that kind of strategy. So right from the beginning, it started, you know, it was kind of like a fortuitous thing to to go there early in, in that in my journey because it, um, it really put the casting bug in my head, you know, it was like, really put it in there. 00:20:08 Jeff: I guess if you could cast far the short cast is easy, right? Yeah. Yeah. Right. So you worked your way backwards, right? You learned how to bomb it out there, and it’s almost like sometimes you got. I gotta hold you back, right? Yeah. 00:20:23 Tim: Well, the good thing for me was, like, I couldn’t cast far in the beginning, that’s for sure. Right. So, uh, although I wanted to cast far, for I was I was relegated to short casts, uh, until uh, later on, after I had learned a few things about Spey casting and, uh, lucky enough, you know, through the Thompson and, and the shop and through, uh, various other channels, I was able to meet guys like Tyler Kushner, um, guys like Dana Stern, Aaron Goodis, good buddy. And, uh, you know, Charles Saint Pierre is another guy. Like, I was able to run into all these people. Brian Niska, who, um, also, you know, shared a passion for casting some of them I met there, some of them I met later. But, um, you know, I feel like we had all had an experience, our experience on the Thompson, you know, a lot of those folks. And, uh. And it was awesome. It was like a common ground to talk about. And, uh, and, yeah, it, um, it was a super formative for me. You know, not only did it teach me about casting, but I mean, I went three years there before I caught my first fish. So it taught me about perseverance, too, because it didn’t it didn’t come easy. But I was, you know, I was so addicted to the river, the landscape, the casting and the things, um, that it just kept me coming back regardless. 00:21:49 Jeff: Yeah. I bet you there was a lot during those three years. There was a lot of good stories that Bates Motel. I bet too. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, sure. Zero steelhead. Plenty of good stories. Oh, yeah. For sure. Absolutely. 00:22:04 Tim: I mean, that place was full of good stories. I mean, when you think about it, um, you know, especially in the later years, the town is really small, and and it just got smaller like it just every year or every few years, you would just be like, man, this place shrunk. Like you started losing places to eat, and you started, you know? Yeah. Losing places to stay. And like, it just it sort of it took all these big personalities and really concentrated them all in a very, very small area, which was like pretty entertaining for sure. So, I mean, like, you know, I was lucky, I kind of, I kind of like rode the middle and I didn’t really mess with nobody and no one really messed with me, which was good. But I think the pub saw its fair share of like, uh, spirited conversations, no question. And, uh, and, uh, yeah, I mean, you kind of got to know everybody because, you know, Thompson is a really long river and it’s a big river. But, you know, if you really if you go there, um, what you notice really quickly is like, most of the river isn’t really that. It’s not that. And it’s got very famous fly water in certain spots, but it’s not like the whole river is just this glorious fly water. And in fact, most of the most productive water, with some exceptions. But but a lot of the most productive water is is right in the town of Spences bridge on famous named pools. And so that’s where everyone would, you know, you would basically see people all the time because it was, you know, like if you and I went and fished the Bulkley Morris, you could fish in Smithers and I could be up in Aspen, and you and I would never see each other in a, you know, you know, a week or whatever. But on the Thompson, you were going to see whoever was there, you know, if you were there for a few days, you’re going to see everyone, whether it was getting something to eat or where you were staying or. Yeah. So it was, uh, it was incredible. Like, it’s a shame now, you know, the the steelhead there, um, have declined quite a bit and, and hopefully one day we’ll be fishing there again. But, uh, but it is, uh, yeah. It’s a shame. It just was such a, such a cool place, uh, for, so, for so many reasons, both for the fish and for the social aspects of it as well. It was really incredible. 00:24:19 Jeff: Yeah. You know, let’s hope Mother Nature repairs itself and we just leave her alone. Right. It it will repair itself, hopefully. But so yeah, you got the bug. You start to really get the itch to start bombing out casts and everything else. But let’s chat up about your business, man. I mean, a lot of that probably cultivated from wanting to cast fire or wanting to get things that that, you know, you’re working at this fly shop, you’re meeting everybody, but let’s chat up the business, you know, tell us a little bit what you got going on and you know what’s coming up in the future. Let’s let’s chat up that man. 00:24:50 Tim: Yeah. So, uh, yeah, obviously, uh, I do design, uh, spey lines in particular. Um, pretty niche stuff like, like sort of specialty Spey lines that are geared to, I would say particular angling situations. You know, I, I like to do tournament casting. Well, I got into long casting. And so the idea like, I guess my first interest in what makes a fly line tick was forged on the Thompson, but later sort of solidified, uh, via tournament casting. And so with tournament casting, you know, when I started and even to this day, I mean, lines weren’t really like, they’re not just ready to go when you buy them, like, they’re too heavy and they’re too long. And now back then there was very few. Even today, there’s very few tournament lines, but most of them the way they are is, um, it’s a line that’s about eighty feet long, let’s say. And it’s probably a few hundred grains too heavy. So what you do is you get that line and you start cutting into the back of it. And basically you I would usually leave the front end alone. And so what you do is go out and cast and okay, it’s too heavy. You’d cut a couple feet off casting. Oh that’s really good. So you, you kind of tune these heads to, to match the tournament rod that we’re using in the casting. And so for me, that was the first time I ever like messed with a fly line. So like I had had thoughts about fly lines and you know, there was all these cool lines. And a lot of times I’d have a line, I like to get a different line. I wouldn’t like it. It would be the same length, relatively the same weight. You know, the question would be like, I wonder why you know, that that dialogue was always going on in the back of my head. But when I went and decided to tournament cast or to go to my first tournament, I realized really quickly that, like, you’re going to have to mess with the fly line in order to get what you want. There isn’t anything that you can just take right off the shelf and put on. So cutting those lines was the first time I ever, I ever altered a fly line for my for my own purposes. And so cutting that line, like so when I first started, I didn’t use like a pre-made tournament line with a lot of guys were using back then. Um, there was a line company called Karen. They were a Scottish company. They made like long belly lines, really cool stuff. Um, they had a line called the Karen ninety five. And so you’d buy like basically what a lot of guys were doing is they were buying the Karen ninety five and you’d cut all the you’d cut all the running line off and the back taper of it, and then you’d cut into the back of it until it basically fell into the grain weight window you were looking for, which a lot of the rod I was using back then was probably like it was about nine hundred and eighty grains, and that thing had way or would be around seventy one feet. And so a lot of guys were doing that. And so when I cut that line, you know, I’d cast, I just felt a how would I put it? I felt a well of power and speed in that, in that line that I had never felt before. Some of it obviously came from the rod as well. But, you know, that line felt different than any longer head I had ever cast before, uh, through this tuning process. And that really got my mind going about like, okay, well, like, this feels completely different than anything I’ve ever used before. I wonder if I got other Karen lines that are shorter. I wonder if I could cut those into like mini tournament heads for for my fishing rods. And so after my first tournament, I met James Chalmers, a really good friend of mine does galeforce stuff, but at that time was the guy at Charon designing the lines and rods. I asked him, hey, do you think Michael and Young could be a Charon dealer? And he said yes. And so they sent a bunch of lines over and well, I started buying Charon seventy five and sixty five and I’d take a Charon sixty five, cut all the shooting line off of it, and then I’d cut into the back of it and until it fit my, my thirteen foot six, seven or, you know, I’d get a seventy five and cut all of it off and cut to the back of it until it, it matched my, um, fourteen foot nine weight. So, like, you know, that really got the creative juices flowing. And then James read, really good buddy from Vancouver Island. Um, he was living here at the time. Amazing bamboo rod builder. Um, some of the coolest rods and a great dude. Um, when I kind of relayed my idea about possibly starting a company, he was the first one to say to me, like, do you even know, like, how to design a line. And I was like, I guess I don’t. He’s like, he’s like, you need to be able to quantify what it is that you want. So he showed me how to graph the shape of a line on a graph and, and look at it. And then I graphed just a whole bunch of different lines. Lines I liked, lines I didn’t. And then some of the shapes that I was seeing on the graphs appeared to be making some kind of sense, and then it just sort of rolled through from there, you know, that just sort of culminated in, you know, my learning journey just continued, you know, right to this day and continues going forward as well. So, um, that’s how the whole thing started. It just came from like a real genuine interest in how fly lines and in particular Spey lines work. You know, how what makes them tick. And then just the idea that we could perhaps like make some cool lines that are, I don’t know, just like maybe a little different in their design, and certainly a lot of them that I make are not all purpose tools, but cool niche stuff that’s like tailored to particular angling styles or situations or, you know, particular sink tips and flies or something like that. Like just some cool stuff for crazy people like me who who want to have really sort of like tuned up lines. Right? So it kind of went from there. And that’s sort of that’s the start. That’s the story of bridge essentially. 00:30:44 Jeff: Yeah. Right. Well, so let’s everybody confirm Tim does and owner and designer of Bridge Outfitters. But before we move on to like what’s new and we’ll chat about some lines, your little logo, the bridge, some people don’t realize where is that bridge. 00:30:59 Tim: Yeah. So that bridge is, um, in Telkwa on the Bulkley and a lot of people on the package. Um, if you notice, up in the upper, it’s the upper right hand corner of the front of the package, you’ll see one one, six point two. And if you go to that bridge and you walk over it or walk up at least to where you would walk over it. You’ll see that that number stamped into the bridge. It’s kind of like a little Easter egg. It’s like, uh, my buddy John who great friend who did all the packaging and the branding, he kind of came up with it and, uh, and basically. Yeah, that’s where it started. Like, I was trying to make a logo and, uh, was failing miserably at it because I don’t know anything about it. And I, I got this illustrator on my old laptop, which was just, like, not up to the task. It was like constantly crashing. And, uh, and I started looking. I was like, ah, I feel like I gotta make, like a bridge for the logo. And I started perusing the internet for pictures of, of bridges that, you know, go over steelhead rivers. And so that style of bridge is like super, super like ubiquitous for like steelhead rivers, like it’s you see that style of bridge everywhere. So people have lots of people have said like, I know that one that bridge is from, you know, my river here or there, whatever. But the truth of the matter is like, it’s a pretty it’s a pretty popular style of like, train bridge, you know, like, so it’s I think it’s something everyone has seen on a steelhead river and it’s something that like they can connect to visually through seeing it. But, uh, I picked that bridge because it looks cool. But a big part of why I picked it too was that there was a perfect picture in Google images of it from the side. I could just import the picture into, uh, into Google or, sorry, into illustrator, and I could trace it real easy, right? Like, you know, I fished there a bunch and the rest it’s great. You know, like, it’s it’s fine. But if I’m being honest, it was like from my very limited experience in how to do any kind of logo stuff at all, it was like it was just the perfect picture of that style of bridge that like, I could get it from the side, right? And, uh, so there was other pictures too, and like, like I fished the Berkeley and it’s, it’s an iconic bridge and it’s the one that a lot of us are familiar with, which is great. There was that, too. And, you know, I’m the kind of guy it’s like, uh, you know, in these businesses, a lot of times you start a business. It’s like you’re like the head of marketing, uh, retail sales, uh, department. You’re kind of trying to do everything. And so I’d gone to the library and just, like, took out a bunch of books on logo design because I figured at least if at least if I failed and I. And I wouldn’t be able to make the logo, at least I figured I could educate myself enough on, like, logo design, that if I found someone to help me, I could at least, like, sound somewhat somewhat schooled. Like, you know what I mean? Like, yeah. So yeah. Uh, but yeah, that’s it’s from the Bulkley, which is like really perfect too, because, like, it’s super iconic. River, you know, one of BC’s best steelhead rivers, you know, one of the highest concentrations of good fly water I think I’ve ever seen in any steelhead river anywhere. So it’s great that it was that one. And John really nailed it by putting that that on the pack. 00:34:17 Jeff: Yeah, I can just see you getting this image on illustrator. Your computer is getting ready to crash like my computer and you know, and you finally get it and you’re like, I got it finally, you know. Yeah. 00:34:32 Tim: And it’s funny, John ended up using, like, the idea worked because like, he ended up using it. Right. Uh, obviously looked a lot better than mine, but, um, it like, way better. Uh, but but, uh, it was cool to at least like, for me, I think it like, feels authentic to me because like, I did play a, you know, a role in picking or like in what the logo is today, basically. Right. So and there’s kind of a fun story behind it and most good things in life, there’s a bit of a fun story behind them. Right. 00:35:05 Dave: So big shout out to Smitty’s fly box. They’ve quietly become one of my favorite places to grab flies and tying materials online. The Smitty’s experience is simple, clean, and it’s all the stuff you actually use. Patterns that fish well, solid hooks, tungsten beads, dubbing, foam, feathers, tools, none of the stuff you don’t need and all the stuff you do. And the cool thing is, these flies and materials come from folks who fish the same water as we do. Their patterns are built around real conditions cool mornings, slow afternoons, and picky fish. So if you’re looking to restock for the season or just want to refresh the bench before your next tying session, check out Smitty’s Fly box. They’ve got nymphs, dries, warm water patterns, streamers, and everything you need to tie your own. You can head over to Wet Fly right now. That’s s as in mama I TT y as in yes s. Check em out. Now. 00:36:01 Jeff: I can attest to your lines. I’ve seen you design lines. I’ve had the pleasure to fish and cast them. I feel like there are lines that want to keep driving, like the front apex of the loop. That wheel just wants to keep driving. I feel that that is one unique characteristic with your lines that I personally feel when I tell people I think that front apex of that loop, it’s the way you’ve designed it. It just keeps driving. And if you’re a fairly, I would say intermediate to great caster, it’s going to hit the back of the reel. And like you said when you first saw it, you’re going to hear that. So you know right. But so you know what’s nice about you, Tim, is that you’re so generous with all of your knowledge, from your lines to your casting skills and education. What’s in the works for you now? You’ve got these great lines. You know, we can talk a little bit down the road about some of your lines when we talk about more about fishing, but what’s coming up next, man? I know you’re not going to get stagnant. 00:37:03 Tim: I like to keep moving. Uh, yeah. So rods are next. So I’ve been doing lines for kind of crazy, but I think it’s almost been eight years. It just seems like I snap my fingers and the time’s just passed. It’s been so much fun. I think it’s just it’s just rolled by, like, uh, like, so quickly, but, um, but yeah, I think like, rods for me was the, the next natural step. And I’ve had like a really genuine interest in how rods operate as well. For a really long time, I, I filled my sort of tackle interest time in the beginning with lines. But and I’m certainly not done learning about lines, that’s for sure. I mean, every time I try and design a line, it is a whole new journey of, uh, elation, frustration, anger, happiness. You know, it’s like, uh, I’m still, like, struggling with line design. I hope it never ends. I mean, to me, that’s like. That’s just what keeps this journey so interesting and fun. But the next thing you know, not to say that I’m done with lines or I know everything about line design, but I just kind of can’t contain myself any longer and I gotta do some runs. So I, um, this September, I, um, I went, uh, overseas and visited some factories, got in, uh, with a really great factory, making some other, uh, brands that I really like. And, um, they’re great guys and super talented at what they do. And, uh, I spent, I guess, a week there, you know, casting and, um, developing other blanks for the rod series, which we call the Equinox series, uh, from bridge. Um, Equinox. Just it’s just kind of a seasonal phenomenon, like a seasonal. I just think the word that points to the seasons and a lot of my products, I like to give them names that conjure up imagery, you know, um, and Equinox does that for me in regards to seasonality. Um, so we’re going to call it that. And there’s three models coming forward. There’s a thirteen foot four inch six seven. There is a thirteen foot eight inch seven eight, and there’s a fifteen foot three inch seven eight as well. I kind of I, you know, as time goes on, I want to introduce a lot more models. But I think like for my journey in Steelheading, I think those three sort of like represent like like what I would use, like from an honest tackle perspective is like always thought try and make stuff that I would like and I would use, you know, um, genuinely. And so I think those lengths and weights for where I live and what I fish for and, and how I like to fish, speak to the company. And I think there also lengths and weights that um, and actions for that matter, that should do well with the lines that I make as well. So I’m hoping that they’re a really good match. 00:40:01 Jeff: Yeah, I’m sure they are. We did have, um. We can go down the road here pretty soon. I did have an opportunity to cast a few of those very first demos, and I’m super excited to see the final products. The demos I saw were super cool. And, um, I agree, right. I think as you become a steelhead angler and you know, you get too many rods, but then you realize that you only need around three or four at the most besides of the river, what you plan on doing, like you said, I’m going to bomb it out there with the big long rod. So I tend to have a rod that’s generally thirteen feet to thirteen and a half feet, maybe because of my vertical challenge of being short. And then when I wade deep, it helps me. But I feel like, um, the shorter rods when I’m on a larger venue, I feel that I just prefer the longer. I don’t know if it’s because it’s got a little more cushion when I’m fighting the fish, but I don’t know. I just seem that where I gravitate. What’s your thoughts on that? 00:41:00 Tim: Yeah, I think like longer raw I think like to be honest with you, I don’t think there’s any one rod or or anyone line for that matter. Style of line, action or rod length of rod. I don’t think there’s any one thing that caters to everything. Uh, and I, I think that there’s, um, a lot of different tools for a lot of different jobs. Um, that being said, I like fishing longer rods myself in situations where I can. And I think, um, you know, Dick Hogan, a good buddy of mine once told me, like, you know, a longer rod puts your rod tip closer to the fly, and the closer your rod tip is to your fly, the more control you have over it. And he said, basically, as your your fly gets further and further away from your, your rod tip, um, you lose control over the fly, you know, on the line. And so I think one thing I notice a lot when I’m fishing long rods is it feels to me anyway, you know, maybe scientifically I’m wrong, but it feels to me that he’s right. Like, I feel like I have more ability to slow the fly down if I want. You know, I feel like I can mend better if I need to. I feel like with that longer rod, I get a bit more control. I think also, as you had said, like. And I mean, whether or not you’re vertically challenged or not, I think, um, having a longer rod can, if you’re weighted deep or you’re a little shorter, it can help with having more leverage on the line, in particular if you’re using longer heads. Obviously, if your head’s super, super short, I mean, there’s probably a point to where a longer rod, if the head’s short enough, could become could become a bit of a detriment for some folks, right? Um, but the lines I like to fish and the way I like to fish and the control at at least seems to offer me over the line. It makes it the the choice I go, uh, with most. I fish a lot between like thirteen and fifteen feet in rods, and then I really enjoy the limited times I get to pull out. You know, a sixteen foot plus rod like that is like my that’s like my favorite stuff. You know, I’m in the end, that’s what I was doing on the Thompson a lot. And then like, you know, going south to the Clearwater and even some areas in the Skeena, the Bulkley can actually fish pretty well that way. So, you know, when I get that opportunity, I love to go to that longer head. And then there’s a point where heads get long enough that like a longer rod’s like maybe a bit more of a necessity because you’re your rod length to line length ratio. If your rod length to line weight ratio shrinks enough, it gets like really exponentially harder. I’ll never say impossible because I’ve just seen way too many people do things that I don’t think any. I’m not sure it’s impossible, but it doesn’t make it easy. You know what I mean? Like so. 00:43:56 Jeff: Right. 00:43:57 Tim: You know, but in the same way, if I was fishing like a, like an eighteen foot head, you know, on a very short like trout Skagit Spey line, it’s likely that I’d, I’d, I’d want to fish something maybe sub thirteen feet and maybe even sub twelve or sub eleven and a half feet, depending on where I am and what I’m doing. But I’ll tell you for sure. Like when I get a chance, you know, if there’s a heaven and I end up there, I hope it’s a river where I can use like a long rod and a long line. You know, if I had to do something for an eternity, that would be. That’d be where I’d want to be, that’s for sure. And, uh. But yeah, I think that they’re, I think they can function as good shock absorbers as well. A rod being that long, I think it could maybe cushion some of the jumps in the runs. I could be wrong. You know, I have no scientific evidence to back that up. But just, you know, the way I maybe feel about it, you know? Um. Yeah. So, uh. Yeah, I like those longer rods, too. And as time goes on, I really want to do some shorter rods as well. I’m definitely going to look at that because I use those too, and I love them as well. But I thought, you know, let’s make those rods we’d use up in heaven first. If we the ones that you really, you know, you really feel strong about and you’d want to use them all the time, I think that’s a great way to make like a really honest product because, like, I feel like I’m not forcing anything at all. I feel like I’m designing these, like, ideal rods for like what I’m gonna do. And then that allows me to get, like, super excited about it. And I think that just leads to to good outcomes. 00:45:30 Jeff: Yeah, right. You know, you start out with the core and then you can fringe out up or down from there. Once you once you get traction and get going and people are like, wow, that’s a really nice rod, right? That’s how that’s how you do it. So you got this great fly line company. Now you got rods coming out here in September. I’m super excited to see those again, see them out in the public where everybody get their hands on touchy feely. You’re a world class distance. Spirometer caster. We can go down the rabbit hole of, you know, long cash, short cash. But let’s just narrow it down to the average Spey caster. Where do you think the fall always ends up with it, right? I always hear you. You gave me the best, I think the best advice. Well, you gave me so much advice, but I think the best advice you ever gave me was this fall when we were in Alaska and you said, Jeff, you got to have something to pull against that single statement. I went down the rabbit hole, and I think I am still working on that and realizing how important that one statement was. So what do you think it is for that, that average Spey caster? Where do you think? You know, those faults are that you really that you see the most? 00:46:44 Tim: Yeah, I mean, most Spey casting faults relate to generating slack. Like like that’s where almost every it’s a loss of tension or a lack of tension. To me, those are, you know, most not all, but many, many, many, many faults come from that. And so usually, you know, you can generate slack in your lift by lifting too fast and having a pause at the top of your lift. And it’s funny, it’s like that can happen really early in the cast because the lift is the first thing that happens. And then if you’re, you know, a new Spey caster or intermediate or, I don’t know, even even guys who are really good, you know, I struggle with certain aspects of things, but you could have slack come into a really early part of the cast, like in the initial lift, and then have that manifest an outcome and an outgoing loop, you know, whether it collapses or it hits you or it ends up in the wrong place. And, you know, a lot of people will come to you and say, oh, I want to work on my forward cast. That’s what I hear a lot of is like, I want to work on my forward cast because the forward cast is what that’s the the end product that you’re looking at. So if you’re not seeing what you want when the line departs the water, a lot of people equate that to, well, there’s something wrong with my forward cast, right? But it’s shocking how often it is that it’s actually something way before that forward cast that’s causing the issue. Right? And so I just generally look at where we’re losing tension. Right. Like that’s usually my, my first sort of thought and even, you know, even things like an anchor being out of alignment with the way a forward cast is going out, that anchor being out of alignment could be resulting from a loss of tension or a lack of tension in the lift and in the sweep, causing the anchor to land in a weird spot, right? So even a line like hitting you when you come forward, you would think like, okay, well, the anchor was in front of me, it was in the way. And I came forward and the line hit me, right. But that could be caused by a, you know, a loss of tension in an earlier stage of the cast, so I’m always I. If I had to say like one thing, if there had to be one general thing is like it’s a lack of tension. I think when you and I were taught, like when I talk about pulling on the line, a lot of times I’m referring to like acceleration, right? And so I’m always been of the mind that when you’re moving a line, like when you’re whether that’s like the sweep in a Spey cast or whether it’s the forward casting motion in a Spey cast or like just basically or the anchor setting motion where you’re going to come up in a snap t and accelerate the rod underneath the line you’ve lifted, getting the anchor to land where you want it to be. Acceleration, to me, is what builds the tension that allows you to move the line. So one one way I’ve always sort of thought about this. And you know, it’s funny, I bought a book way back in the day on on Spey pages. I remember Dana Stern had mentioned a book written by a guy. I hope I don’t screw this up, but I think his name was George V Roberts, and it was a book on fly casting. And basically he in that book explained acceleration and tension in a way that I had never really thought about that before. And what what his thought was, was when you’re accelerating a rod tip, you know, let’s just use the forward stroke as an example here, as an area of the cast where you would be moving the rod tip and moving the line. So when you start your forward stroke, you want to accelerate the rod tip as you go forward, right? And so if you do the old like ten to two in a straight line, right. Like like a lot of us got taught. But you don’t use any acceleration. You use the same speed back and forth. The line won’t even come off the ground. But the second you pick up speed both back and forward and you accelerate, the line actually jumps up and starts moving. And so what’s happening when you’re accelerating is what is explained to me in the book was that if this is the rod tip and the rod tip is accelerating, and then you have the line following the rod tip on the forward cast, so you’ve got your say in a single hand cast, you’ve got your line extended behind you, right. And it’s turned over and you’re going to come forward and make that forward cast. When you’re accelerating forward, the line is is following the rod tip. And if your rod tip keeps getting faster, that means the line is always moving a little slower than the rod tip is. And so it’s the difference between the two speeds. It’s the difference between the speed of the following fly line and the ever accelerating rod tip that causes tension to form. And then people say rod load, right. Well, I’ve seen guys cast with with literally broomsticks with fly lines on them. So I know that rod load plays a part, but tension is the is the main thing. Right. And so I would say load on the rod is giving you an indication of tension. Right. It’s the rod only bends and loads. And you can feel that when you’re pulling on the line. Right. And so basically if you can accelerate really smoothly all the way through that motion, you’re going to pull on that line all the way through. And so I really like to visualize pulling on the line rather than just like accelerating or I’m going to try and smash, you know, like every time I move the line, whether it’s in the sweep of a single spey, I think about acceleration and pulling on the line. Right. Or whether it’s in my forward cast. When I come forward, I think about smooth acceleration and pulling on the line forward. And I think like to me that’s like my I try and like pass that to people to where it’s like the understanding of what acceleration does, how it helps to provide tension, and then the idea of pulling on the line. It’s been a game changer for me. Reading that book changed the way I thought about tension and how it affects fly cast. 00:52:48 Jeff: That is absolutely spectacular, right? Because the way you break it down, it’s it’s not as hard as it is, but just a few things, like you say, pulling on that line. Right. Are you a rod tip watcher? Do you watch the path of the rod tip or. I know when I, I saw you for the first time. Cast a spell, Rama. I had a little time to spend with Whitney Gould, and she said the same thing you did. She goes. Everything starts at the lift. And I have time to spend with all you guys, you know? Great. All my mentors are great speed casters. You know, like some say, watch the rod tip. You know, because you know, this is your rod tip watcher or what do you watch really? 00:53:24 Tim: Uh, I’m an anchor watcher. I’d say more than anything, I think, like. And I don’t know why I watch my hands. I don’t know why. It’s what I watch. Video of me casting. I’m watching my hands. Uh, and I think one of the funny things about competing is, um, you’re learning journey, which Which everything is but tournament. Tournament casting is a learning journey just the same. But doing tournament casting in places where a lot of people are filming things means that your learning journey is going to get recorded right, which is great. So I have the great benefit, but also embarrassment of going back, you know, to early in my tournament Spey casting career and seeing some terrible, terrible, terrible technique and, you know, and and to say that to just trying to rationalize to me why I watch my hands. But I used to get my hands way behind my head, like I get them way back here and, and I would end up flattening the rod tip out and even dropping it at times. And I’ll never forget James Chalmers and a great guy’s name comes up again. And, um, he’s got this. Like, I haven’t gotten a ton of casting advice from him, but everything I’ve ever got from him is like this, like really great. Like, boiled down, like, take one word out and and the description or the tip doesn’t work anymore. And he just said to me, he comes over and he’s watching me. He’s after the tournament’s done. And he says to me, he goes, what should you see before you make your forward cast? Right? And I was like, I don’t know. He’s like your hands, right? Because so far behind me. And so I think like I still struggle with that to this day. Like I still that’s still something. Every year when I’m practicing, I’ve got to say to myself, like, hey, keep your hands in front. And I’m, you know, in your firing position, right? And so I videotape myself a lot when I’m practicing. Um, and that’s something I’m always looking for. So I guess like that that advice he gave me was so like, uh, profound that I think it, like, changed the focus of where my eyes go, you know? And I saw such an amazing immediate result from doing what he said, right? Um, that I just do. Watch my hands a lot. Yeah. 00:55:45 Jeff: Yeah. Well, that’s that’s probably the best tip everyone’s going to hear about the whole whole episode, man. It’s like, keep the hands out in front. Right? 00:55:52 Tim: Yeah, you should be able to see them. 00:55:54 Jeff: Awesome, man. Well, let’s start winding down. And, um, I will say, me and you had a super good time. We double hosted our your, you know, again in Alaska at the Katmai Trophy Lodge. We had some cast of characters with us, no names mentioned. There was there was definitely some adult brown beverages, liquid drank. And, uh, I think it was a great time. What did you think about casting a spey rod from a boat up in Alaska on the Naknek? What’s your thoughts on that, man? 00:56:29 Tim: Yeah, I love it. I like I didn’t think I’d like it. Uh, but to be honest, like, I don’t know, there’s something to it. You know, shooting the line is obvious. Like, it just sort of like, um, how would I put it? Well, number one, your feet stay warm. I like that part of it because it’s pretty cold in October. Right? And, uh. And your feet can get pretty cold. And then you got all your goodies in the boat, which I like that, too. I’ve got all my, you know, like, all my stuff’s right there. And, uh, I got my my little casting platform, which is super fun. And, and then the other cool thing, I mean, is you got your buddy right there on the other side of the boat. So the talking and, uh, and super fun, uh, dialogue can take place, like, all day long, which is, which is super fun. So and also too like the NAC nac, you know, I’m not I don’t know if everyone knows but the NAC. NAC is like a huge river. It’s massive. It’s like it’s like bigger than the Thompson. It’s a huge, huge river. So you know, going out in the boat and then taking you out into these lies that you if you’re saying the shore, you wouldn’t even know if there was a lie out there and fishing. That stuff is super fun and like, I think two standing on the boat and you’re looking down off the bow. It’s really cool because you can see right down into the water you’re fishing, and so you can kind of see like that structure and why you’re there. And I don’t know if you’re like me, but I was like as a kid, I was always like fascinated with what was going on under the water. Like, I love going to the aquarium and I just like, I like what was going on under the water. And still to this day, like, I love it when we finish up a run and we’re drifting out and standing up and looking down over the side, trying to spot fish. Like to me, that’s super cool. So I find that really interesting. But yeah, I think too, like, I don’t know, I just I enjoyed it. I didn’t think I’d enjoy it as much. And there’s a skill to casting out of the boat as well. You know, you’re avoiding the anchor rope, you’re needing to deal with wind. And yeah, I think it’s just another skill you can learn. That’s a super fun skill to learn as well. And I think too, I just saw that there are I just didn’t think it was really like until I went there that it was like a really viable thing and it really showed me like, no, this is like a this is totally like a way you can fish and be super effective doing it. 00:58:43 Jeff: Yeah. I mean, the river’s large enough that there is a river, right? And a river left. It’s not like, oh, I’m you like you, you could cast across the river in a few places, you and Matt, but it wouldn’t do you any good. You would have to literally go on the other side. So it’s it’s that large of a river, which is super cool. And it’s not like it’s, you know, it’s only eight miles of river that we’re fishing up there. Right? And it’s on the Katmai National Park. You know, most of that. We’re fishing. So it’s sort of like the first time I went there, I was twenty some years ago. It’s one of those I always told myself, I’m not going to Alaska. And then when when I did finally go, I’m like, yeah, no, I should probably do this again, you know? I mean, the rainbows can be giant, but like you said, the that clear water and you look over it as you’re motoring down and you see these giant chrome rainbows and you’re like, whoa, that’s like a thirty inch plus rainbow. And then you circle back around and you work your way down through the run at it and you connect with it. You’re like, Holy crap, right? 00:59:47 Tim: Yeah. It’s so cool. I mean, like, to be honest, it’s like, you know, I love Steelheading, but I, I think, like, really, I just find rainbow trout to be super interesting fish. And this is like one of the most interesting sort of subsets of like that interest for me. Like it’s super unique because basically these fish, they look like steelhead, like they’re just most of them are super chrome. They’re they fight like crazy. They pull super hard, but they’re not going to the ocean. They’re living in the lake and they’re in this river. They’re like reverse steelhead. They’re living in the lake, migrating into the into the river. But then going back to the lake, right. Like, um, and then even though the ocean’s right there, they’re not going there. And then the fact too that like they’re because they’re not steelhead, they are eating. They’re actually eating. You know, they are actually hunting down, you know, the things they need to eat. And so the cool thing is like you’re having encounters in quite frequently, you know, the stuff we’re we’re throwing for them. I would equate it with like winter steelhead sort of gear, I would say. And like the difference between encounters in a winter, a day of winter steelheading and a day of fishing on the Naknek is like, you know, obviously days can be different and you can have tough days anywhere you fish. But I think dealing with fish that are actually eating is like super cool, right? And I think it’s cool to the gear we’re using. Like these fish are big enough that we’re using seven, eight and even nine weight two handers for them. So these fish are big. They pull super hard and they’re super interesting fish. Like I just think it’s it’s such a unique fishery, I just don’t know. I’m sure there’s other places that might be similar, but I’ve never encountered anything like it. 01:01:38 Jeff: Right. Yeah. And the flow is, you know, super, super pushy, right? It’s, you know, we can weight it. We do have good weight runs. We can weight it. You know, sometimes, you know, you got to jump in the boat just to get it because otherwise they’re going to spool you. But you know, this is one of the this was the platform that you sort of tested your multi density line. 01:01:58 Tim: Yeah definitely. 01:01:59 Jeff: Yeah. And I mean that was one of the major factors of being successful there along with intermediate gadgets. But you know having that floating back section and being able to maneuver that in between some of those confused currents really, I think really helps out an angler in those situations. When you’ve got a head that’s digging down, you got to have a dig. I guess the words would be maybe you could help me through this. A headache wants to dig and get to the fish and strong flows, but yet controllable. 01:02:29 Tim: Yeah, that’s the key. We we wanted a slower swing and we wanted an enhanced sync rate, but we didn’t want something that once it landed on the water, you couldn’t do anything with it, you know, which is, you know, some of the multi density heads that we’ve seen over the years have had sinking sections that are long enough that once they hit the water, they’re great, they swing slow and they’re awesome lines like there’s you know, I fished a lot of them and they’re great. Um, but the one thing I thought in some cases was lacking was the ability to, like, speed that fly up if needed quickly or hold back on it or broadside it or, you know, have like or massage it to the inside when it was slowing down as it was coming into the last, you know, third quarter of the swing. So yeah, we just really wanted I mean, I think what we thought we, you know, how we could make a line be unique would be to have something that would focus, obviously, on an enhanced sink rate and a slower swing. Um, but maybe something with like, quite a large diameter, and we call them line design. The driver section, which is the thickest part of the near the back of the line, to essentially blow that up in order to provide essentially like a a bigger ship to sail, to sail that sinking section, basically to be able to better control it and use the water resistance on it to help push it around, depending on what you’re doing with the rod tip at the time. But the the Naknek was like the perfect place to test it because, you know, getting down is important there, and a slow swing is important there. And we’re using big flies. So it was important also that it could take care of heavy sink tips and larger flies as well. And even though it’s a big river and there are a lot of places with even currents, um, you’re one hundred percent correct. There’s some more technical sections where you do have some conflicting currents, and your ability to control the line could really, you know, contribute to your success rate. So it was like super perfect avenue or venue to test it. I couldn’t have asked for a better place. 01:04:32 Jeff: Yeah, I mean, it worked out super well. It was always funny that those fish sometimes because there’s so much, you know, it’s a conveyor belt of food. You know, the sockeyes, they just got done gorging on the eggs. Now they’re looking for the flesh. Then they got the big leeches they’re looking for. It’s sort of like sometimes you would think they’re just like you said. They’re there to feed. You think the grab would be pretty aggressive, but they’re so full, you almost had to, like, marinate it. Like you said, the winter steelhead and the grab wasn’t. Some of them weren’t as aggressive as you think, but boy, once you hooked them up, it was over. Then it was on like you were like, oh, this ain’t a big one because it was just like a little bit of a heavy weight with a pluck, and then all hell breaks loose. Oh yeah. 01:05:15 Tim: Yeah. And if you get a good one there, it’s as good as you’ll find, you know, like, as good as anywhere. It’s pretty awesome. They, they pull super hard and, and in certain sections like, um, like that lower section closer to the lodge. The water’s a little quicker down there. And like when they get into that current, you know, sometimes you’re chasing them in the boat, you know, or you could go stumbling downstream, you know. Again, I prefer the boat if, if the, the options there. But another thing that really struck me about that the Naknek too is like there’s water for everyone there. So like our friend Chris who was there like he loves to. Wade. Guys love to Wade. And if you want to Wade, like there are spots for that. And, um, we had, um, another couple friends that were there with us and they wanted to fish single hands, the full sinking lines out of the boat, and they caught as many fish as anyone. And then there’s what I like is a combination of of Spey casting out of the boat and from the and from the wading as well. Right. So I think it’s like, yeah, super cool and a really diverse angling experience. And uh, another part that was really interesting to me. And you like. And I had not encountered this type of it’s not like a style, but I guess like the way the fish are and how certain spots set up, like King Flats, for example, which is this big shallow section with all these like, like potholes and riffles that are all, like irregularly scattered throughout. And one of the neatest things about fishing there was waiting that spot and like basically waiting way like halfway across the river in knee deep water and then putting ten casts in this pothole and then looking down and seeing, you know, fifty feet downstream, there’s another one, but it’s it’s further inside and backing up and then wading down to it and basically pickpocketing all these like really cool little, little buckets that all these rainbows are sitting in, right? It was super cool. I never fished a steelhead river like that. 01:07:16 Jeff: Yeah, right. It’s like I said, didn’t think I’d want to go to Alaska, but it’s like, no. Nope. I’m going back. So we are going back again. 01:07:24 Speaker 4: We are? 01:07:25 Jeff: Yeah, we’re going back the first week of October, so if anybody wants to join us, feel free to reach out to Tim or myself or Dave there. I’m sure he’ll help us out. Uh. So, um, well, we should probably wrap it up. It’s been over an hour. Tim, is there anything else you want to get out? Um, maybe chit chat a little bit. I mean, conservation wise, before we wrap it up or. 01:07:45 Speaker 4: Yeah. 01:07:46 Tim: I’m, uh, I’m a director with the Steelhead Society of British Columbia. Um, certainly, if you’re looking to donate some money to steelhead worthy causes, they’re great. Um, they’re doing all kinds of great work here in British Columbia. And, uh, just a really great group of dedicated folks, um, working on a bunch of super cool projects. So, um, if you were looking to support anyone, uh, obviously there’s many great charitable places you can put your money, but, um, that’s the one I’m part of. And we would certainly appreciate your help if, uh, if you were so inclined. And then outside of that, um, I’ve got another line coming. up just in the the final stages of it. It’s the wintertide multi density. Well, for anyone who is a fan of the wintertide head, which is a little bit longer, a winter fishing line for moderate sink tips and moderate flies. The wintertide multi density will have a a short intermediate and sink three section much like the torrent MD. Um. However, um the length is longer and because of that the diameter at the front smaller, so it is more suitable to medium sized flies and lighter tips. But for those of us who enjoy fishing, like more classical style patterns tied on hooks or smaller intruders on type three through maybe ten twelve feet of T11. This line is going to be just offer a little bit of extra head length and sort of smooth casting feel that you get from a longer head. Uh, with that more. Yeah, that kind of like modern front end that helps slow things down and get a little extra depth if needed. So that one I’ve spent about the last year toiling away on. And, uh, I think finally, finally we’re we’re real close. I think we’re actually pretty much done. So hopefully we’ll see that one hopefully within six months. But we’ll we’ll see where it all goes. 01:09:39 Jeff: Sounds really good. You know, being a little longer and being able to use it in the winter, you don’t have to strip in and get all the ice on the guides. 01:09:46 Tim: Yeah it’s less ice in the guides, no question. Right. 01:09:49 Jeff: So yeah, that’s a lot of complaints that I get is that, you know, the stripping ice. And I said, well, if you just get a little longer head, then the only time you really got to worry about is when you catch a fish, which could be a month, right? Yeah. 01:10:01 Speaker 4: That’s a problem I. 01:10:02 Tim: Gladly worry about. 01:10:03 Speaker 4: Yeah. Of all the problems. 01:10:05 Tim: I have in my life, that’s the one that I, uh, a little ice. If I end up fighting a fish, you know. 01:10:12 Speaker 4: I’ll take that one, right? 01:10:15 Tim: Yeah. That’s it. I’ve got a number of casting clinics, going on. I’ll be at Emerald Water’s Spay Day, uh, at the end of this month. Uh, uh, January thirty first in Fall City at the bridge over the Snoqualmie there. So if if anyone was, uh, wanting to come see us, you know, I might have a few of those raw prototypes hanging around. It’s possible. And, uh, there might even be, uh, a wintertide multi density prototype hanging around, too. So, um, and certainly, uh, always love to chat and talk with everyone. So, uh, looking forward to, uh, to doing that and seeing everyone there. 01:10:52 Jeff: Sweet man, I can’t thank you for coming aboard, giving us all your knowledge. Um, if anybody is interested, please reach out to Tim at Bridge Outfitters. Support him and his steelhead society. You know, and if you have any questions, please reach out to myself or Dave. And, uh, we’re checking out with this episode and we’ll see you in the next one. Thanks for the listen. 01:11:18 Dave: That is a wrap. You can grab all the show notes at Wet Fly Comm. And please follow us on Instagram and share this episode out with someone you love. Please send me an email at com if you have any feedback, or want us to put together an episode on this podcast for you. Check in any time. I hope you enjoyed this podcast and would love to meet up with you on the water. We have new fly fishing schools going all year long and all around the country, so if you want to connect, let’s do it right now. All right, time to get out of here. I hope you have a great evening. I hope you have a great morning or afternoon wherever in the world you are. And I appreciate you for stopping by and checking out the show today. We’ll talk to you soon.